Category Archives: charismatic

Building with a Full Deck? (Response to CMP, part 7)

Posted on July 6, 2010 by | 2 comments

By Marv

This post is part of a series responding to C. Michael Patton’s eight-part series at Parchment and Pen “Why I am Not Charismatic,” which is also conveniently available for download as a single e-book here. This is in response to part seven.

 

Michael,

You admit to a history of deep-seated emotional bias against Continuationism (against Charismaticism,  really), but you insist you are all over that now.

You have weighed the Cessationists’ Scriptural arguments in the balance and found them wanting, correctly, I’d say.

You then offer up a subjective consideration of your personal experience, informed my some dubious expectations and shaky definitions.

You top this off with an argument from ignorance, based on selective evidence, ignoring contrary data, and out of all possible explanations you opt for the one that by an odd coincidence happens to correspond to your long-abandoned bias.  Go figure.

So, having laid a foundation such as this, you are now ready to build, it seems.

I don’t know, though.  At this point you loop back to some of the Scriptural arguments you previously said were underwhelming.  What, had they been pumping iron in the mean time? 

Just a few points in reaction:

1.  That whole “supernatural sign gifts” thing.  Not to repeat myself, but as I explain here, I really do call into question how valid that category is scripturally.  You post a chart in your part one, and then proceed to assume this concept for the duration of your series, but you never really derive it from the Bible.  Yet it controls your entire definition of “Cessationist.”

You understand, don’t you, that the fact that you choose to define Cessationism in terms of the sign gifts, doesn’t mean that Continuationism does or should.  I think Cessationism is wrong in part because the concept of “sign gifts” itself is spurious.

All “gifts” are empowered by the same Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:11, 28-29), but only some are “supernatural”?

Spiritual gifts in general are said to be God’s co-testimony to the gospel (Heb. 2:4).  So which ones are not “sign gifts”?

2.  You make a statement: “Everyone would agree that the work of Christ is not repeated over and over.” Well, yes, if what you mean is the finished work of Christ, His unique redemptive work.  However, you have here stumbled onto what I think is the main point you have missed all along.  In another aspect of Christ’s work, it certainly does continue—if you believe what Jesus says about it:

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.  (John 14:10-12).

Note two things:

a. What you say about “sign gifts” Jesus says about His works: they confirm His words and help to build faith.

b. “Whoever believes” in Jesus will do these same works.

Jesus does not suggest that this is the only reason the believer is to do these works.  In fact we would do them as He did them:  because they are the Fathers’ works (v. 10b).  And this is the fruit that brings Him glory (14:13; 15:8).  When does that purpose get exhausted?

3.  You say you don’t find compelling evidence that all this continues. Well, that “whoever” in v. 12 does seem to me to indicate continuation through this age.  Does it not to you?  What about when Jesus brings this subject up again, saying that the power given through the Holy Spirit was for testimony “to the end of the earth”?  And if the power to do His works was because God was with Him (Acts 10:38), what could it mean for Christ to promise to be with us to the “end of the age” (Matt. 28:20). End of the earth, end of the age, does that sound like two generations?

4. You use the “no longer any need” argument.  Whose “need” do you have in mind?  If you are talking about God, “need” is not a relevant category.  God does not act out of necessity or need, but because He has willed, and according to His plan.  And if we believe Jesus’ words, it is a matter of God’s plan and His will that believers are to do the same works that He did.

On the other hand, if you are talking about our need, Jesus says—of this very subject—that without Him we can do nothing (John 15:5).  God’s need is 0%; our need for the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to do the works of Jesus is 100%. 

5.  Now to your specific Scriptural citations, Paul refers to the “signs” of a true apostle (2 Cor. 12:12).

“The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.”

Now I think it is likely that the first use of “signs” here does not mean “miracles,” but simply “indications” (as the NIV takes it: “The things that mark an apostle…”).  But no matter, because we still have clear reference to “signs and wonders and mighty works.” 

It is not surprising that apostles would be marked out by, among other qualities, their wonder-working power.  I think they probably performed the works of Christ in fullness, that in others we would think of as individual gifts.  We know it was not only the apostles through whom these acts of power were manifested (Acts 6:8). At any rate, however, Jesus’ words are pretty clear: “whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do.”  Limit this “whoever” as much as you like, considering the way Jesus uses the phrase (ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ) throughout the Gospel of John, and these are not including the variations on the wording:

 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. (John 6:35)

Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. (John 7:38)

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.  Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live (John 11:25).

And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me (John 12:44).

6. Draw what implications you will from Eph. 2:19-22: “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (v. 20), but the whole building, not just the foundation is the “into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit” (v. 22).  This takes us right back to one of the major themes of John 14-16, God dwells in the believer through the Spirit in order to bring forth His works:

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. (14:10).

In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. (14:20).

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”  (14:23)

I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. (15:5)

If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. (15:7-8).

7.  Finally, you resort to Heb. 2:3-4.  Again, I have dealt with this passage at some length (here), but there are a few remarks that need to be made about your citation:

a. You make a point of saying the gospel was confirmed “to them,” but not “by them.”  Apart from the fact that the author asserts the former, though not the latter, he is talking to people who are unconvinced of the gospel,  those in danger of “drifting away” (v. 1), of “neglecting so great a salvation” (v. 3).  Jesus said those with faith in Him would do His works.  Are we somehow surprised if those lacking faith do not?

b. Recall that what is being said here is in regard to “gifts of the Holy Spirit” (v. 4) in general, not some subcategory of “supernatural sign gifts.”

c. I have to question your use of “seems,”  which apparently serves in lieu of actual logic:

“This seems to indicate once again that the supernatural gifts primarily served a confirmatory purpose, not simply a benevolent purpose.  (emphasis mine)

“It also… seems to suggest that these confirmatory gifts were already beginning to exhaust their purpose.”

“The writer of Hebrews and his audience (the “us who heard”), it would seem, did not possess these gifts themselves, but relied upon the witness and testimony of those who did possess these gifts.”

None of these statements are at all indicated by the passage.  As Jesus Himself said, the works He did back up His words, but these were not their main purpose, which was to glorify His Father.  The author here makes the same point: believe the words, or at least believe because of the works.  There is no indication whatever in the author’s words that the works Jesus prophesied and promised were not continuing and were not to continue.

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Posted in Acts, cessationism, charismatic, continuationism, Gifts of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, John 13-17, Power, sign gifts, Uncategorized

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Response to Patton’s “Why I’m Not Charismatic” (Part 6)

Posted on June 29, 2010 by | 2 comments

by Scott

Marv and I are currently working through a series in which we are interacting with Michael Patton’s eight-part series entitled “Why I’m Not Charismatic”. You can also download Patton’s series in a 22-page PDF file.

If you want to read our first five posts, they are here:

To be honest, I believe this is the most difficult section of Patton’s series with which I have had to respond. It isn’t so much that the difficulty comes on biblical and theological grounds, but what has happened is that the lines have become extremely blurred. On a more positive note, this could be a good thing for the sake of seeing continuationists and cessationists come closer and closer to agreement, moving towards greater unity in this particular area of our theology (which includes practical theology or orthopraxy).

But with section 6 of “Why I’m Not a Charismatic”, this becomes difficult for at least two main reasons.

  1. Agreement that, because God is sovereign, He can do the miraculous.
  2. Terms like normative, expectations and sign gifts.

Now, I am aware some of these things have already been addressed previously in some form or manner. But they keep coming up, these same underlying statements. And, so, hence why I am re-addressing them, but hopefully with some newer thoughts.

1) God Is Sovereign and Can Do Miracles

This is where the blurring of lines, or confusion, begins. For example, Patton lays out this well-known argument from more modern-day cessationism:

Folks, we all believe in miracles to varying degrees. If you don’t then you have departed from the historic Christian worldview and slipped into some variation thereof (something of the deist sort).

I identify this as a more ‘modern-day’ argument because I am not sure you would have heard too many cessationists some 50 to 100 years ago arguing this. They would have believed that God certainly did (past tense) the miraculous in biblical times during the three main clusters of Moses-Joshua, Elijah-Elisha and Jesus-the first apostles. But the purpose of such had been fully exhausted long ago with the completion of the New Testament canon.

But, today, as Michael reminds us, we all believe in miracles to varying degrees.

I would identify these types of statements as a ‘get out of jail free’ card. I am not trying to be nasty here, but I am trying to be real. When it comes to discussion around these issues, many modern-day cessationists will slap this card on the table as if to say, ‘Yeah, well we believe in those things as well. We believe God is sovereign and can do whatever He wills.’ And, thus, this should settle the matter.

Now we must respect a cessationist’s acceptance that our God is truly a God of the miraculous. This is a starting point. And you even have people now, like Patton, who say they are open to all the gifts of the Spirit. But there is still much confusion when you start digging deeper into their belief, especially the more practical distinctions.

But I believe the arguments like, ‘Of course God is sovereign and, so, He can do miracles whenever He wants,’ can serve as a smoke screen. I suppose both Calvinists and Arminians believe in God’s foreknowledge and predestination, since the words show up in Scripture. But how does this break down for both groups? A lot differently.

So, Patton even notes some differences between the continuationist and cessationist.

A continuationist/charismatic is one who believes that the so-called supernatural sign gifts such as tongues, prophecy, worker of miracles, etc. are normative for the church and that we should commonly expect people to be gifted with them.

A cessationist is one who believes that the supernatural sign gifts ceased after the death of the last Apostle or shortly thereafter due to an exhaustion in their purpose. Therefore, we should not expect such gifts in the church today.

Differences? Yes, though oddly Patton makes this statement later on:

Even most cessationists believe that God could gift anyone with the gift of tongues or prophecy at his will.

This is where some can be left with a furrowed brow of confusion. What do cessationists believe here? Can God perform and give such gifts? Does God do such? Or does He not?

So, it seems at this rate, anyone could play a ‘get out of jail free’ card with regards to our beliefs. ‘Well, if God is really God and can do anything He wants, then He will do A or B or Y or Z.’ Or how about, ‘Well if God is really God, then He could reveal Himself to me.’ Or finally, ‘If God wants others to know about Him, He could tell them.’

Goodness, this all sounds like we are moving towards Christian-agnosticism. But don’t let the clay stand before the potter saying, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ There is responsibility with our faith. We cannot just claim something of black ink on white paper, or black type on a blog. There is responsibility given to the believer.

Listen, I am completely convinced of the sovereignty of King Jesus and that our Father in heaven can accomplish anything He wants. Nothing can thwart His plans. Nothing! But that will never stand as an excuse for the saints to not pursue all that God has for us in Christ by the His Spirit.

So, with regards to miracles, healings, prophecy, etc, we can’t just sit around and claim God’s sovereignty and go about our business as if we have ticked (checked) all the boxes that are required. We can’t even simply tick the box that says, ‘I’m open’ (see more here). Many have been open to Christ. But following is a different matter.

2) The Confusing Terms

Ah, but here comes the clarification of the contention and difference, this from Michael’s own words:

A charismatic, however, believes that these are normative and that we should expect them. Did you get those two important words? Normative. Expect.

The words normative and expect can cause the two groups to talk past one another, and even people within the same group can talk past one another due to these terms. Now, I already addressed the word normative in my part 2, but I thought I would reiterate some things and share some more thoughts.

I believe the use of these terms can become just another ‘get out of jail free’ card. Why? Because each person has a different definition of what is normative and what is to be expected. But just as I was not willing to grant the first pass, I cannot allow this one either.

Cessationist and continuationist would both agree that the fruit of the Spirit are normative and to be expected. I’ve yet to hear anyone claim for their ceasing and I don’t expect to ever hear such. But do we always see the fruit manifested? Heck, there are even periods when we might say the fruit of the Spirit seemed quite foreign to a portion of the church. I’m thinking the period of the Crusades, I’m thinking of western expansion into places like Africa or North America (all in the name of Christ many a times).

But, guess what? These are still normative and to be expected, right?

There have been times when polygamy was acceptable, but the norm and expectation, from a biblical standpoint, was to the contrary. There was a time when indulgences and penance were acceptable, but the Christlike norm and expectation should have been different. There was a time when slavery was acceptable, but the norm and expectation was to the contrary.

Ah, but this is much different with the issue of miracles and healings. Is it? I know what Scripture teaches as the norm and expectation of the body of Christ. Christ’s body is to be all of Christ in all the earth.

Michael goes on to remind us:

However, there may be times in history when miracles do happen much more regularly. God moves in time at his leisure and has complete freedom. We dare not attempt to bind his freedom with an artificial theological position of our own systematic comfort. I believe that there are times in history and places where miracles do seem to become regulars. But, generally speaking, they are extremely rare. Too much expectation can set us up for disillusionment. Most people don’t get healed. Everyone stays dead. Christian’s bills sometimes don’t get paid.

Wow! Let’s just hand out an infinite book of passes, those ‘get out of jail free’ cards. We need a bunch here today.

This kind of thinking, this kind of theology, this kind of practical theology leaves us with a bunch of theory and absolutely no expectation. In theory, we say it could happen. But we walk around with no expectation at all. That is not too healthy, is it? We never step out in faith to pray for the sick, we never take the time to listen to God as if He might speak, we never step out to utter that which we believe God is communicating.

Sure, we might fail or miss it at times. You know, just as those in the cloud of witnesses could have and did miss it at times, and all those since. I’m not trying to throw out my own ‘get out of jail free’ card. This is simply the reality that God’s people can and do miss things. God speaks and we don’t realise it. God doesn’t speak and we think He does. I’ve prayed for people before with a faith that they would be healed, and they weren’t. I’ve not prayed for people at times because I didn’t want to deal with the disillusionment of another non-healed person.

But, as a friend wrote in a song – Our disillusionment is how we grow. But I still want to take steps of faith. And as we keep journeying in hearing God, we will become more and more sensitive to the words of the Father, looking to emulate the Son’s own reliance upon the Father (John 5:19).

So, with the particular words normative and expectation, I think they become unhelpful on many counts. If a continuationist speaks of all gifts of the Spirit being normative or that we should expect them, I am pretty sure most don’t believe this necessarily warrants that we each walk around every single day laying hands on the sick and seeing healing or receiving revelation that we stand up an prophesy publicly. I’m not sure this was the mindset of even the early church. Maybe, maybe not.

But the problem begins when we take a more individualistic mindset on these things, or only viewing things from the standpoint of our own local church. We forget that Christ has a body of believers spread right across planet earth, possibly reaching the 2 billion mark now, which Patton testifies to himself on his own blog. Even if that number were a bit high, and even if we sliced that number to only consider those who were truly pursuing Jesus, we would be left with a large portion of people interested in pursuing the things of God. And to think that Jesus might even do something without the express permission of His people.

But in our western mindset, we only think about our lives or our local church. Yet Jesus is Lord of a body that spans across all 24 time zones. I’m thinking that, though you or I might not see a miracle today, God is quite actively at work all across the world and these things are taking place on a daily basis. Remember, 2 billion Christians today.

And please don’t put this off to just third-world areas. Yes, there is a lot more regular testimonies of miraculous activity in places like Africa, India and China. I have plenty of ministry friends that can testify to such. But I almost vomit when I hear someone argue that, the reason this happens more regularly in the third-world is because the testimony of Christ has not fully spread to those areas nor are the Scriptures fully distributed in these places. Huh? What?

So if these people in the third-world spread the gospel a little more, receive more copies of Scripture and acquire more theological training, then the norm and expectation would then be to see the miraculous fade? Are we serious? This only resembles the age-old argument that these things pretty much faded sometime after John, the apostle, died and the New Testament canon was completed. It’s just more suitable for the modern day. Please give me a break.

God’s activity, the norm of His activity, is to do that which only He can do – to reveal Himself, to testify to Himself, to break in with the kingdom rule of God which brings salvation, righteousness, healing, revelation, faith, hope, peace, joy, etc. That is God’s activity from Genesis to Revelation, which includes us since Christ has not returned to marry His bride.

As to our expectation, well Jesus did teach that those who believe in Him would do the works that He did (John 14:12), which is not only tied to miracles or healings or prophecy, but does include those. Luke starts off Acts by telling us that, in his first book, he wrote to tell all that Jesus began to do (Acts 1:1), thus expecting more to continue via His Spirit-empowered body. And Paul says to earnestly desire spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14:1), even telling us to not despise prophecy (1 Thessalonians 5:20) and to not forbid speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). And remember, Michael tells us that Scripture actually does not teach that these gifts will end.

So, if they are not to end, and we have so much encouragement to continue on in these things of Jesus, then let’s get on with lining ourselves up with the challenge of the God-breathed Scripture. Let us take the free-pass cards back off the table.

Normative – Yes, knowing that Jesus has a people spread across planet earth.

Expectation – Yes, according to the teaching of Scripture, which Michael affirms.

As for sign gifts, those who frequent To Be Continued will note that we are not huge fans of categorising certain gifts of the Spirit as sign-gifts. It’s a dubious category that cessationists have created to serve their own purpose. I am a little more benevolent than Marv in recognising that this sign-gift category might be semantically sustained. But, if so, there is still nothing suggesting that this sign-gift group gets chucked out or becomes rare as the church moved into the second century AD.

Still, so we don’t get too repetitive, and so I don’t go on and on, I point you to this post and this post to read more about the sign gifts.

So, of course, it is quite easy for both cessationists and continuationists to espouse their belief in God’s sovereignty and that He can perform miracles whenever He wants. That’s great in one sense, but not too helpful in another. Doctrinal statements consisting of white paper and black ink don’t lead to something being a reality in our lives. Rather, we are challenged to align ourselves with Scripture’s teaching, this being true even if what we see around us is contrary to biblical teaching. And Michael Patton believes Scripture teaches that these gifts will not cease.

So, what is the next step? I think Marv already gave some practical points to consider in part 3.

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Posted in cessationism, charismatic, continuationism, healings, Michael Patton, miracles, sign gifts

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Is That What History Really Teaches Us? (Response to CMP, part 5)

Posted on June 21, 2010 by | 5 comments

By Marv

This post is part of a series responding to C. Michael Patton’s eight-part series at Parchment and Pen “Why I am Not Charismatic,” which is also conveniently available for download as a single e-book here. This is in response to part five.

Michael,

The unspoken premise behind your historical argument is that over the centuries the church has looked pretty much the way Jesus intended.  Really?  Anything that goes missing, then, is like the dog that didn’t bark, prima facie evidence that the thing has dried up at the source.  It is something that God just isn’t doing any more.  Once we start playing that game, however, it is difficult to know when to stop.

There are a number of ways to respond to your part five, “An Argument from History.”  As for your specific citations of Chrysostom and Augustine, Scott has countered these quite handily in an earlier post here.  Jesse Wisnewski makes a similar argument at Reformed and Reforming here, and also makes the observation here that it illustrates the fallacy of an argument from ignorance.  Then there’s the point that you take us on a snipe hunt for the elusive “supernatural sign gifts”, showing that if you set your definitions and expectations just right, you can be assured of coming up empty handed.  This is your own “glaring weakness” in commenting on about Jack Deere’s argument, where you say:

He equates evidence that the historic church believed in the miraculous with evidence that they were continuationists. You can’t equate the two without misrepresenting what is at stake.  The historic Christian church has believed in the miraculous, they have not believed in the continuation of the supernatural sign gifts, by and large.

On the contrary, Michael, I’m afraid it is you who have misrepresented the situation by insisting on your own minimalist definition.  Continuationism in the first place is not about “gifts” but that Jesus Christ:

…continues His work of glorifying His Father, building His Church, and advancing His Kingdom through the ongoing, vital and dynamic interconnection He maintains with those who are in Him, accomplished through the empowering presence of the Holy Spirit…

From my earlier post “What Continues?”

This empowering presence is referenced in a number of forms such as prayer in Jesus’ name (John 14:13-14), the prayer of faith for healing (Jas. 5:15), and signs and wonders (Acts 4:30).  The phenomenon that this empowerment is parceled out through the different members of the body gives rise to the concept of “gifts” (1 Cor. 12:4).  Parallel terms here include “service,” (v. 5), “activities” (v. 6), “manifestations” (v. 7).  Elsewhere they are called “distributions” (Heb. 2:4, though typically translated “gifts”).

Isolating the term “gifts” only serves to distort the issue, particularly when pared down to the scripturally dubious category “sign gifts.”  This category serves as a nice sharp container where the used, hazardous and unwanted bits may be safely disposed of, but it is not only absent from church history, it doesn’t even appear in the Bible (more here.)  And I’ll have more to say as I respond to your part seven.

I want to take a somewhat different tack, however, in responding to your argument from history.  As I suggest in my first paragraph, the same kind of disappearing act occurs with other aspects of apostolic teaching, and I don’t think you, at least, would see these as evidence God is no longer doing that sort of thing.

1.  Salvation by grace alone through faith alone.  It is amazing how the sharp edge of this central apostolic truth goes blunt shortly after the death of the apostles.  The Shepherd of Hermas, for example (ca. AD 150), which is listed among the “Apostolic Fathers” proclaims that once you are baptized, you can sin and repent only one time (Mandate 4, chapter 3).  If this were true, we’d all be toast, of course.  Thank God for the butter of His grace!

We again pick up a clear understanding of grace with the Protestant Reformation, but what are we to say about the intervening centuries?  The truth wasn’t completely absent, but unmixed expressions of it are scarce for several centuries.  We now have some five centuries since the doctrine’s recovery, but do we conclude that in the interval God had withdrawn sola gratia?

2.  Believer’s baptism.  Speaking of baptism, I understand your ministry statement of faith is deliberately short and broad, but I think you personally hold to believer’s baptism by immersion, if I am not mistaken.  At any rate, I think this was the “normative” apostolic practice, but it did not fare so well in the history of the church.  Even the Protestant Reformation largely did not restore this, except in what some would designate as “fringe groups and cults.”  Some really do argue for de facto paedobaptism from the course of history.  Would you?

3.  Premillennialism.  Understand that I am directing this specifically to you, Michael.  A number of people will not agree with this point, including Scott, but it is given as an example.  I believe you hold that the apostolic hope was premillennial, but that this understanding disappeared for the most part early in church history.  It had a resurgence around the nineteenth century.  So in the sweep of history, it is not that different from the time frame you attribute to continuationism, which you say was not “in any way normative before the twentieth century.”

This historical premise is definitely used by some as an argument against premillennialism.  What about you?  Are you a de facto amillennialist?

So what do we really learn from history?  Don’t we end up proving a little too much if we take your approach?

These are just a few of examples.  You could probably suggest any number of reasons why particular doctrines or practices ceased to be “normative” over the years, without suggesting that God was “no longer doing that.”  Indeed, we ought to exhaust every other possibility before going with that option.  Ignorance?  Tradition?  Clerical status?  Biblical illiteracy?  Misunderstanding?  Distortion over time?  Fear?  Disbelief?  Poor leadership?  Politics?

The church is often likened to a ship.  Over the years wooden sailing vessels require periodic maintenance.  Their bottoms becomes fouled and their wood suffers from rot.  The barnacles need to be scraped off and the original woodwork restored.  Unfortunately, some of our ecclesiastical institutions of long standing over time became in many ways more barnacle than timber.

From time to time more extensive refits have been necessary. The best known is probably the Protestant Reformation, which largely focused on soteriology.  Today, I humbly suggest,  it is time for recovering apostolic pneumatology.

Semper reformanda.

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Posted in cessationism, charismatic, continuationism, Gifts, Gifts of the Spirit, history, Holy Spirit, Jack Deere, Michael Patton, pneumatology, Power, prayer, sign gifts

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The Word of the Lord in Our Worship Gatherings

Posted on June 20, 2010 by | Leave a comment

by Scott

Today in the gathering of Cornerstone, in continuing our major series on the topic of worship, I looked at Psalm 33. I specifically emphasised four points (or really 3 of them due to time).

  1. Our praise to the Lord (vs1-3)
  2. The word of the Lord (vs4-12)
  3. The eye of the Lord (vs13-19)
  4. Our hope in the Lord (vs20-22)

But more than anything else, burning deep within my heart was the second point – the word of the Lord in our worship gatherings.

The word of the Lord has an extremely important role in our worship gatherings. An extremely important role! If our goal is to simply gather together and sing three, four or five songs and then move on to the next ‘part’ of our gatherings, our services, well, I think we have missed the point.

Oh, I do believe that God speaks through the exposition of the Scriptures. I do believe God stirs through the conversation that takes places amongst the saints. I do believe Christ is very present at the table when we share the bread and wine. All of these things are very important. But if we move through each of these elements and are never really aware of the word of the Lord, then we have missed something.

When I use the phrase, ‘the word of the Lord’, as in Psalm 33:4 and 33:6, I am not only talking about the Scriptures. Oh yes, I believe the Scriptures are the faithful, God-breathed word. Extremely important. But I am convinced the word of the Lord is not only contained in the Scriptures. I believe they are the starting point for our faith and the practise of such. But the word of the Lord continues on, never contradicting that of the testimony of the full and final revelation in Jesus Christ, but nevertheless still coming forth in the present day.

Now, interestingly enough, many of us can identify with God speaking via the biblical text. I can recall a worship gathering where God spoke to me through Exodus 15:3 – The LORD is a man of war, the LORD is His name. I don’t remember how I ended up in Exodus 15, but there I was with it open. And it was like Niagara Falls opened up over me with regards to the revelation that came from that verse. I had an understanding that day like never before with regards to how God fights on behalf of His people.

But I can also point to times when I did not necessarily have Scripture open, but the Spirit of the Lord communicated and spoke something. Not specifically a prophecy that needed to be shared publicly with the saints or with a specific individual. Rather simply God speaking and communicating something about Himself. Oh, it fit in very well with what Scripture teaches, complementing and not contradicting. But there wasn’t a specific chapter and verse to quote.

Specifically, I remember a time in a small church in a small town of England. On one Sunday as the congregation was engaging with God through song, God helped me realise that I have never tasted of His unfaithfulness. Never! I have tasted of difficult times. But never of His unfaithfulness. And I have clung to that on a regular basis for the past 4 or 5 years since that day. I’ve clung to such a revelation very tightly.

So I must say that an insight, no, a revelation has been stirred and kindled a fresh in me this week. It is that we must remember the role of the word of the Lord in our worship, in our gatherings. To go through the service step by step, part by part, portion by portion, without realising the importance of the word of the Lord, well, as I have said, I think we will have missed something.

Please understand that I am not wrapping this all up in some kind of super-charged Pentecostal experience. That is not the point by any means. But if the word of the Lord is truly living and active, even that which He speaks that is not directly found in the Scriptures but still does not go against the teaching of Scripture, then we need the word to come and be alive in our midst. Does man not live on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Matthew 5:4)?

But do we listen? Do we turn our ears? Do we ask God to speak? I know plenty of times where the saints have gathered together and I have moved on not even engaging with God on much of any level. Again, I am not trying to tie this all into an extreme subjective experience, though these are not necessarily against the workings of God (see more here). But I suppose this God who has drawn us to Himself, this Jesus who is actively involved in our lives by His Spirit, He wants to communicate with us on a regular basis. Hence, the word of the Lord will come forth. But do we hear.

And you know what, when God speaks things happen. If we are listening and truly hear God speak, things will take place. At times, fulfilment will come instantaneously (think about the creation account or the changing of Abraham’s name). At times, there will be waiting (think the birth of Isaac or the coming of the Messiah in flesh). But, regardless of immediate fulfilment or a time of waiting, things will happen if we hear the word of the Lord. Faith will be stirred, hearts will be awakened, hope will be kindled. And we will be confident that what God has said is truly what He said.

If there is an element of fulfilment to come, we can be certain it will be fulfilled at just the right time. This is not an excuse to appease the skeptic who challenges something as truly from God because it was not fulfilled immediately. We can keep on listing that which is in the Scripture itself that was spoken from God but took years, decades or even centuries to be fulfilled. Rather, I remind us that His word is certain and will certainly be fulfilled to encourage us to cling to the word of the Lord.

Weigh it – with Scripture, with our leaders, with our brothers and sisters in the body. But that which is truly the word of the Lord will come to fruition. And our spirits will testify when the Spirit of the Lord has truly brought forth the word of the Lord. But if we are not sure, again, we have the Scripture, our faithful leaders, and the faithful body.

So, let us dearly remember the importance of the word of the Lord. It is of absolute import in our gatherings. Yes, in our personal devotion and walk with God as well. But the word of the Lord in the gathering of the saints, when it is truly His word, will come forth like a two-edged sword, and God’s people will testify to it’s changing power.

For the word of the LORD is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does. (Psalm 33:4)

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Posted in charismatic, continuationism, experience, Gifts, Gifts of the Spirit, God speaking, prophecy, revelation, subjectivity

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Response to Patton’s “Why I’m Not Charismatic” (Part 4)

Posted on June 14, 2010 by | 7 comments

by Scott

Marv and I are currently working through a series in which we are interacting with Michael Patton’s eight-part series entitled “Why I’m Not Charismatic”. You can also download Patton’s series in a 22-page PDF file.

Thus far, we have posted three articles responding to his first three parts.

By the way, you will probably notice right up front that Marv’s posts carry much wittier titles and arguments than mine. I guess I am the dry, dorky, pastoral-theologian. Oh well. Thankfully we are a tag-team here. So now I somewhat dryly continue on with part 4.

If you read part 4 of Michael Patton’s series, I suppose you will respond in either one or a combination of ways: 1) anger, 2) frustration, 3) brokenness, 4) embarrassment and a whole host of other possible emotions.

Patton’s part 4 is a kind of side excursus where he shares of one particular person’s negative experiences with prophecy. Even as a continuationist, I am quite aware of such stories and examples right throughout Pentecostal, charismatic and third-wave circles. Matter of fact, as the proverbial statement goes – We’ve all been there, done that. Even if we haven’t personally been a part of negative experiences, we’ve at least seen such on television or heard enough stories from our friends and colleagues.

And such truly breaks my heart. But, even more, it breaks the heart of our Father.

But let me start off by giving what is probably one of the wisest nuggets I can give when it comes to the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts: Abuse and misuse should not lead to no use, rather it should lead to biblical and healthy use. Or, to say it another way: Abuse and misuse should not lead to disbelief in something, rather it should drive us to truly understand how to faithfully walk it out in accordance with the Scripture.

Those who know me and read my stuff regularly will note that I say that statement quite a lot. And I expect a rolling of the eyes from some due to the perpetual nature of the statement from my lips (or keyboard). But I believe that is truly the biblical approach to most problems we face with the practise of our faith. And I definitely disagree with the approach of abandoning something all together because of abuse and misuse.

Again, I know that abuse takes place. I know things go wrong. At times I want to hurl at what I see on what is labelled as ‘Christian television’. But I cannot allow such to push me to abandon what 1) I believe Scripture teaches and 2) what I have seen God do in mine and the lives of others.

Here is reality: There is abuse right across all aspects of the Christian life. We can name just a few. What about leaders who sexually abuse children? Should we never trust leaders? I don’t believe that is the answer. Divorce rates are just as high in the church as in the world. Should we just abandon marriage? I don’t believe that is the answer. I know plenty of people claiming the name Christian but don’t live at all like the one we are named after, Christ. Should I abandon the faith all together? I don’t believe that is the answer.

Again, I believe the answer is this: Abuse and misuse should not lead to no use, rather it should lead to biblical and healthy use.

Well, that is not a band-aid answer to fix all things. What might possibly be needed is deep emotional healing from abuse. What might also be needed is to find another church community to be a part of. But I believe a mature body of Christ will not ultimately allow abuse and misuse to determine where they stand. They will rather desire to pursue God, study the Scriptures and look to see what it teaches outworked in their lives, which includes the workings of the Holy Spirit Himself.

Now, the person that Patton quotes in his article also observes that none of the prophecies that he has heard spoken have ever come true. None.

I don’t know this person in particular and I don’t know the people who he says have ‘prophesied’. So I really cannot address him or them particularly. But what I can say is that I have heard plenty of prophecies in my life in Christ that have come to fulfil their purpose. I don’t use the normal phrase of ‘prophecies that have come true’ because, while I am ok with that wording, I do believe it can create a wrong perception about prophecy.

What does Paul say the fruit of prophecy will be?

On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. (1 Corinthians 14:3)

And to see this accomplished, one does not have to predict something. You see, we have fallen into the trap of believing prophecy is only about predicting things to come. Not only the hearer, but also the one speaking can easily fall into this false notion.

Now listen, I do believe prophecy can have a predictive element. But that is secondary to its primary purpose of being a specific message from God (an unveiling of God’s heart and purpose) that brings about edification, exhortation and comfort to the body of Christ. And when we allow prophecy to function in the bigger framework that God Himself desires, we will realise that 1) we don’t always have to announce that something is going to happen and 2) we aren’t looking for it to ‘take place’ within our own prescribed time frame.

Again, I believe prophecy can have a ‘predictive’ element to it. I’ve seen this in my own life. Right now I’m specifically thinking about a prophecy given to me by a ministry partner a few years back as a group of leaders were gathered together. It came to fulfilment (and is still being fulfilled), but only after about a 3-year period.

And that’s just it. When prophecies are given that speak of something that will take place at some point in the future, we in this microwave generation of everything-must-happen-in-3-minutes sit around expecting it to happen automatically. Or, we might give it a week or two at most. But don’t we realise that even some prophecies found in Scripture took a long time to be fulfilled? There was the 25-year waiting period for Isaac to be born. There were the centuries of waiting for the Messiah to actually arrive. And we are still waiting for Christ to return to make all things new.

Not only that, but we must also realise that there is an unfolding nature to some prophecies. As I said, a ministry friend of mine prophesied something that took about 3 years to come to fruition. But I believe that prophecy is still being fulfilled, still unfolding with its blessing and fruit from God. Plenty of prophecies from Scripture fall in that category as we are still living in the Messianic age of the new covenant. God is still pouring out His Spirit on all flesh (Joel 2), still writing His laws on people’s hearts rather than tablets of stone (Jeremiah 31).

The problem is that we build such wrong assumptions of what prophecy is. And this is not only true for the cessationist but also just as true for the continuationist. You know the silly ones:

  1. You must begin a prophecy by stating, ‘Thus saith the Lord…’
  2. You must use Thee and Thou.
  3. You must shout.
  4. You must include a few Hallelujahs.
  5. You must only prophesy on Sundays and not the other days of the week.

Those are a bit silly, but we do build up wrong presuppositions of what prophecy is. Here are more likely ones:

  1. Prophecy is always predictive. [I addressed this above.]
  2. Prophets did not exist after the apostles came. [Plenty of prophets existed in the New Testament: Agabus, Judas and Silas, prophets in Antioch, Philip’s four daughters, prophets in Corinth, etc.]
  3. Prophets are specifically those who wrote the Old Testament Scriptures. [There were plenty of prophets that did not pen one word in Scripture – Elijah, Elisha, Nathan, Agabus, etc.]
  4. Prophecy must be accompanied with signs. [Is that true of all prophets like Nathan, Gad, Micaiah, Agabus, Judas and Silas, etc?]
  5. Prophecy must be fulfilled within our prescribed time frame. [I dealt with this above.]

And there are a host of other false assumptions of what prophecy is and what the ministry of a prophet is. It takes time to take off the wrong lenses and see them replaced with the correct lenses. But it is possible. It happened with me and it happened with my colleague here, Marv. We both were cessationists and we both had our theology radically changed via God’s Word and true interaction with the Spirit’s gifts.

A couple of more things.

Patton included these words from the disillusioned person who had converted from continuationism to cessationism:

If you have the gift of prophecy and it is working for you and you have evidence to back it up, please contact me. I would love to be proven wrong. I am serious as a heart attack. I’d rather prophecy be happening rather than not.

I’m not trying to give a cop-out excuse and side-step things, but this is really not how it works. I promise you this isn’t the design of the Spirit of God Himself. Maybe I should have listed it above in the false presuppositions we have about prophecy. Prophecy isn’t like an on-off light switch that you kind of control when you want. I’m sorry to say this, but it just does not work like that.

Now, for the one who is used regularly in this gift, I would not deny that they could ‘on the spur of the moment’ be used in prophecy. But it doesn’t work with an, ‘Oh yeah, prove it.’ You remember what happened to the Son of God right before His crucifixion. People were beating Him, taunting Him and saying, ‘Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?’ (Matthew 26:68). He could have. It would have caught there attention. But such did not fit into the purpose of prophecy or the plan of the Father.

What I can do is give you testimonies in my life, which I have alluded to above. And I can point you to some posts even on this blog that gives examples of faithful prophecies and hearing God’s voice (see this post, this post and this post). But I am pretty convinced, at least from Scripture (i.e. 1 Corinthians 12:11), that this is something God is in charge of. Not to mention that it seems pretty obvious that these gifts were not accessible in an ‘on-off’ fashion from reading the narrative portions of Scripture where these men and women of God were used in such gifts.

Oh, we are called to pursue Him and His gifts. But this is not a water faucet that we turn on and off whenever we want. Even Jesus looked to the Father to know when to do something and what to speak:

Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. (John 5:19)

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:10)

Remember, I post this article very aware of the grave failures of prophecy and other spiritual gifts. I can probably even easily point to my own failings with prophecy: 1) speaking that which I should not have and 2) not speaking what God I should have. And maybe we are all sometimes guilty of number 2 because of number 1. So I know the pain and hurt. I have seen it and heard plenty of stories to shake my head at.

But, though experience does truly shape our theology, and such is not evil in and of itself, I always encourage the flock that I shepherd, a flock of multi-cultural and multi-church backgrounds, that abuse and misuse should not steer us away from what Scripture teaches and God desires. Rather we will look to be a people that know God’s heart by centering our understanding in His Word and we will look to practise such gifts with as much faithfulness as possible as we stay humbly submitted to Him. That, I am convinced, is the heart of God.

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Posted in cessationism, charismatic, continuationism, experience, Michael Patton

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